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    Senior Hostboard Member GM's Avatar
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    Re: Altec 604s "built" into a Bookshelf?

    You?re welcome!

    Material stiffness increases at the cube of thickness, making ?? to 1? a ~2.37x increase in rigidity, so in theory well worth it, but all things considered, a vertically braced ?? thick panel is just as good, if not better, for a lot less $$$/effort and if you break the baffle up into sections with the driver and vent areas removable, then effective stiffness increases to the point of rendering the subject moot.

    The trade-off of course is a lot more mounting hardware and potential for air leaks of which even a tiny amount will ruin a reflex?s tuning. If the driver is front mounted, then brace a one piece baffle the same and preferably all the panels due to their size.

    OK, there?s at least four different ?optimal? driver locations depending on who you ask and/or what works best overall for the needs of the app:

    At the extreme closed end [opposite where the vent is]. Typically for subs or when coupled to a horn or other driver on top.

    Down 0.21. Some folks believe this is optimal based on simple ? WL closed pipe theory.

    Down 0.349. MJK?s conclusion based on wave theory, so very popular.

    Mine, which is based on mechanical resonance theory, varying based on length and cross sectional area [CSA] or down 0.4588 in your case.

    The further down the pipe within the lower limit, the less damping material required to smooth out its harmonics, but the less pipe action [acoustic efficiency] as the trade-off, so in the scheme of things performance wise; lower is better for wide BW use, though never having compared my way to MJK?s, don?t know if there?s an audible difference or if it?s enough to matter. I?m guessing probably not in most cases unless it changes the fundamental ?tone? of a male voice.

    In short, driver cutout centerline anywhere between ~15.71? ? 20.65? i.d. down from the top would be ?optimal? with as little as ~9.45? down if you think a higher stuffing density is OK.

    Conventional wisdom dictates the vent system be near/at the bottom, though at least one designer uses MJK?s software to shift it up the pipe a bit whereas again, I calculate it a bit differently to get a specific type of alignment for when the speakers are well away from any wall boundaries. In your case it would be near/at the bottom front.

    WRT vent size, for the kind of specs Altec or similar have; due to the pipe?s ? WL action impacting vent damping, it depends on the driver location, with it decreasing in area to keep vent length short with increasing driver distance from the closed end of the pipe.

    Or, you could use the largest size as the pioneers of audio chose to maximize vent efficiency, but if you tune to actual Fs as you normally should when using a high output impedance amp, this just means that you?ll probably need to damp it more in your app to keep it from sounding ?boomy?. Only one way to know for sure though.

    Anyway, vent area decreases from ~132.73?^2 - ~95?^2 as the driver ?slides? down the pipe with vent length shifting from 0.75? [baffle thickness] to 3? respectively. This assumes a ~22? wide slot vent down 39? i.d. with of course its height being variable.

    I?ll post 2 pi [1/2 space] loading sims including aperiodically sealed [highly damped vent] as time permits, so with your near 1 pi [1/4 space] loading combined with no way to accurately sim a current [tube] amp?s impact on driver performance and with no room eigenmodes consideration that will cause peaks/nulls in the lower octaves, they will be strictly for driver/vent comparison purposes.

    GM
    Last edited by GM; November 17th, 2011 at 03:46 AM.
    Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean! As always though, the usual disclaimers apply to this post's contents.

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    Inactive Member Encyclopediabsh's Avatar
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    Re: Altec 604s "built" into a Bookshelf?

    In short, driver cutout centerline anywhere between ~15.71? ? 20.65? i.d. down from the top would be ?optimal? with as little as ~9.45? down if you think a higher stuffing density is OK.
    Completely understand this part as to options for mounting driver

    Anyway, vent area decreases from ~132.73?^2 - ~95?^2 as the driver ?slides? down the pipe with vent length shifting from 0.75? [baffle thickness] to 2? respectively.
    Concerning the vent location, sounds like the bottom front is best. However, concerning the vent size, since planning on using 3/4" birch ply, are you saying the vent should be~132 sq inch? Just wanted to make sure, that seems fairly large. For 132 in sq equates to 18 in x 7.5 in. Hope I'm not asking a dumb question here...

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    Re: Altec 604s "built" into a Bookshelf?

    No, not a dumb question, ~accurately calculating vent area/length is fairly complex, especially in high aspect ratio cabs long enough to have 1/4 WL pipe [TL] loading affecting it. Even the math intensive simming software I use has an inaudibly small error when the vent is any shape but round.

    For the sims then, driver down:
    ~9.45? = 13? i.d. diameter vent
    ~15.71? = 12?
    ~20.65? = 11?

    Again though, all this assumes a 33 Hz Fs, so best to build it so that the vent area/length can be adjusted for max power transfer efficiency when a high output impedance amp is used, though it may be a moot point because I?m pretty sure you?ll find them too ?boomy? in-room, forcing a high enough vent stuffing density to flatten their response, shifting Fb lower in the process if not re-tuned.

    In my haste, I see I made a typo and left off some vent details, so have edited my prior response per below:

    GM

    +++++++++++++

    Or, you could use the largest size as the pioneers of audio chose to maximize vent efficiency, but if you tune to actual Fs as you normally should when using a high output impedance amp, this just means that you?ll probably need to damp it more in your app to keep it from sounding ?boomy?. Only one way to know for sure though.

    Anyway, assuming a 33 Hz Fs, vent area decreases from ~132.73?^2 - ~95?^2 as the driver ?slides? down the pipe with vent length shifting from 0.75? [baffle thickness] to 3? respectively. This assumes a ~22? wide slot vent down 39? i.d. with of course its height being variable.
    Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean! As always though, the usual disclaimers apply to this post's contents.

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    Inactive Member Encyclopediabsh's Avatar
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    Re: Altec 604s "built" into a Bookshelf?

    Thanks so much for the details GM.

    I'm inclinded to try the baffle construction method suggested (removable sections for the driver cut out and vent area). If anyone has tried this method, could you please post some pictures so I can have a better idea of how to build it?

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    Re: Altec 604s "built" into a Bookshelf?

    Quote Originally Posted by Encyclopediabsh View Post
    Thanks so much for the details GM.

    I'm inclinded to try the baffle construction method suggested (removable sections for the driver cut out and vent area). If anyone has tried this method, could you please post some pictures so I can have a better idea of how to build it?
    The Shindo Latour is a perfect example of removable baffle construction

    I've done a couple of mockups in Sketchup based on the dimensions mentioned in this thread. As drawn the baffle can be flipped to alternate between the 15.71" and 20.65" driver offset. The model on the left has a 22" x 5.14" slot which is equivalent to a 12" diameter port (~15.71” = 12” diameter port), the model on the right has a 22" x 4.32" slot which is equivalent to an 11" dia port, top of the slot is 39" down, length of port not drawn. As you can see a 22" wide port at 39" offset on your baffle doesn't leave you a lot of room for a removable port board

    The horizontal guide running at approx. chest height on 'the dude' is your 45" ear height, baffles are drawn 9" off the floor, the other guidelines show the ID of your enclosure (27.5 W x 22.5 D x 45 H). The driver board is 500mm W x 655mm H, baffle cutout for the board is 420mm W x 575mm H, driver cutout is 359mm dia, sorry about the units.

    bookcase6045th

    bookcase6044th

    Is this what you had in mind GM?
    Last edited by omodo; November 19th, 2011 at 04:55 AM. Reason: fixed links

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    Senior Hostboard Member mah's Avatar
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    Re: Altec 604s "built" into a Bookshelf?

    My effort. Butt joints with glued corner blocks and glued 'plate' across the rear of the joints. I used 2 crossmembers with a divider panel glued on to form a beam for rigidity.
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    Opinion is only as valid as its verifiable supporting evidence.

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    Inactive Member Encyclopediabsh's Avatar
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    Re: Altec 604s "built" into a Bookshelf?

    Thanks everyone for the replies so far. MANY apologies, but just notice a typo on the dimensions earlier in the thread - my attached drawing was correct, but the width was a typo. Correct inside dims are:

    Width = 20 in
    Depth = 22.5 in
    Height = 45.0 in

    Is there a rough formula for calculating the vent area needed based on dimensions alone?

    I am embarrassed and apologize again for the misinformation...

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    Senior Hostboard Member GM's Avatar
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    Re: Altec 604s "built" into a Bookshelf?

    Quote Originally Posted by omodo View Post
    Is this what you had in mind GM?
    Nothing so elaborate, but would be very nice if panel has an even fit. Me, I just normally make them full width as mah has done and as Altec did with the 846B and some others: http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...ign/page31.jpg

    FWIW, here's one of my 'sub' woofers from '69: dual 515Bs in individual removable baffles, ditto the vent baffle, though not obvious since I haven't worn off the paint on the screws as I've done periodically rotating the woofers. Note that the big perimeter recess is for a heavy duty, flush fit grill frame, so not a good plan to have it otherwise if not filled with high density open cell foam.

    The baffles are attached to a 2x6 frame with the two cross pieces being 2x6 on edge. This is way overkill, but wood was cheap and I didn't care how big/heavy the cabs turned out. 1x2 Fir or better with an added 1x3 on edge to form a 'T' cross bar[s] is sufficient.

    GM
    Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean! As always though, the usual disclaimers apply to this post's contents.

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    Hostboard Member vyju's Avatar
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    Re: Altec 604s "built" into a Bookshelf?

    Hi,

    GM what are the dimensions of your cabinet?

    Would dual 416A's work in this cabinet?

    Regards
    Rajiv

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